Lexapro Landings

I've been racking my brain for a phrase to compete with my favorite "Wellbutrin Wins," to similarly describe my experience with the anti-depressant Lexapro.

Wellbutrin, an anti-depressant medication I started a year and a half ago, helped quiet some of the constant panic and terror I felt about every day living. It also helped tune out my sense of everyone else's feelings and needs, so I could better center around my own.

Six months later, I worked with my psychiatrist to add Lexapro to the mix. It helped me land in my body, with my thoughts and emotions still vibrant and swirling around me, but no longer sweeping me away.  

In this podcast, I talk about situational depression ( 3 months of shoulder pain!), and seasonal depression (bitterly cold and early dark days of winter) crashing together to leave me thinking... "Why Monday?"

I don't know that medication will benefit everyone who needs it and tries it. 

But I do know that it still feels incredibly shameful and scary to talk about needing mental health support. And this keeps people who could benefit greatly from it from even considering it.

Depression and anxiety are already such incredibly lonely experiences. And help - whether medication, therapy, exercise, or a combination thereof - can take time to kick in. Staying committed to getting better, when everything already feels so hard, is a true act of courage.

Come check out the Hot Mess series on TikTok, and watch as I lose my mind - and find it again - writing, producing, and acting in a show!

#CreatingIsHealing🦋

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

First podcast back from shoulder surgery. If you're looking on YouTube, there's this beautiful sling. It's pretty, pretty massive sling. Uh , I've got one more week to go before this sling comes off, which is super, super exciting. Um, I've been healing incredibly, incredibly well, which is a total blessing and also a sign of how hard I have been working every day to use a red light and use an e-stim and put different kinds of lotions for bruising and for inflammation. And there's like a whole thing happening. But , um, they did a great job. It's doing really, really well and I'm really glad to be back. Having said all that, the thing I really came back to talk about is mental health and depression and medication for those things. I, I made a podcast episode on Wellbutrin, which is an antidepressant that I started a year and a half ago, I think , uh, maybe last June in 2022. And it is by far the most listened to top rated episode I've ever put out, which is wild to me, but also tells me that there is very much a need to be talking about these things. I'm so grateful. Okay, this is gonna sound wrong, I'm so grateful to Covid . But one of the silver linings that came out of Covid was a much greater understanding of depression, of a much more , um, willingness to talk about it and a more greater willingness to seek help. And if you've never struggled with depression, God bless <laugh> , you have a beautiful brain, keep at it. But for anyone who has, and anyone who has loved ones or friends who have, I just really want to be furthering this conversation. One of the reasons I did the Wellbutrin episode is because there was a coach that I was following who was also an artist who always in her email seemed to really have it together and was on top of stuff and so positive and so manifesting and all that language. And then wrote this email about how she'd gone through a really long depression and finally asked for help and got on medication. And it really saved her life. I was blown away because I had no idea. And it was really helpful to me because I was also struggling and I didn't feel like medication was a right fit for me. And it was a few months later where I realized I really can't do this on my own. And I reached out to a psychiatrist. I imagine the way that I present to people, which is incredibly peppy, incredibly energized, incredibly curious about the world. I think people would find it easy to imagine that I am happy all the time. I'm not , um, I mean no one is, but I struggle a lot with depression and anxiety and have for my entire life. But definitely way, way, way more aware of it. When I started college , um, is when it got way harder and became really clinical and needing a lot of help. And I tend to perk up when I talk to people. I tend to really , um, be excited to see other humans because it takes me out of my overwhelming brain space, my mindscape where everything is really tough and scary. And so I do come across as very energetic. And um, but when I'm done speaking with a friend or done taping a podcast and I turn everything off, I'm back to just huddling in my bed , uh, depending on, you know, when things are bad. So I, I also, I lost a really dear friend and colleague , um, goodness, I think about 10 years ago to suicide. And it was the most unexpected thing ever. She was beloved by everybody. She was known for , um, sorry I haven't talked about this in a while. Um, she was known for volunteering. She was considered shy and quiet, but wise and outgoing and always willing to help. And we had all of these silly jokes going at work. We adopted a plant together 'cause I was part-time and we would trade off watering it. And then we heard that she had died by suicide and it's still really hard to talk about. And so, again, I, for those who maybe don't , um, read as depressed and maybe are very good, I'm also very high functioning, depressive. I find that going to work and doing math and getting busy with someone else's project gives me a sense of accomplishment and gives my brain a place to focus other than the thoughts that might be swirling inside of me. So one of the ways that I got myself out of a really bad depression in my twenties and thirties was by showing up to work. It was like a reason to shower and a reason to get on a subway. And by the time my legs started moving, my brain started moving and there was something very clean and nice about math. There's always, I do finance and there's always like a point. It always adds up to something. Uh, so you can close that loop. I think one of the hard things about depression and anxiety is a lot of open loops, a lot of unanswerable questions, a lot of worrying about the future, which no one can know and your brain can just spin and spin and spin. So I'm a very high functioning, depressed, I show up energetic. I crack a lot of jokes, mostly 'cause I wanna cry on the inside and I find that easier. Um, I've also noticed that when I go out into the world to pick coffee or you know, chat up the grocery store clerk , um, if I'm in a really sunken mood, they tend to reflect that back and it makes my mood worse. It makes me feel more, I'm shrinking as I'm talking about it, more sad and lonely and disconnected. And so one of the reasons that I am peppy when I talk to people, I don't love that word, but it's probably accurate. I feel like a golden retriever sometimes I'm like excited by people is because when I'm excited and I find a way to crack a joke that makes us both laugh, I create connection and then I feel that glow back on me and that helps me in my day. So I work really hard to connect with people to find a way to , um, yeah, it's usually tell a small joke or something or notice something about someone's hair or nails that I can comment on or you know, the song that's playing in the grocery store. Just some way to kind of break through the monotony of also grocery store clerks. Like it just looks kind of , uh, deadening in terms of boredom. Um, and they just get used to people going through the line and it's, you know, kind of, it's like I think about the DMV like breaking through the monotony of bureaucracy. So way off on a tangent, but talking about sort of what it is to present to someone who seems really happy. And I do have a lot of joy in my life, but I'm not a fundamentally content happy person. I am getting there, but mostly because of medication. And I've gotta caveat this by saying I obsessed with self-development. I was on antidepressants in my twenties. They didn't really work and they also messed up my stomach. And I've had 20 years of stomach issues ever since then. We actually don't know if it was the antidepressants. I also was on anti-inflammatories for my first two shoulder surgeries and those are known to be really hard on the stomach. So I could also have a pre-existing stomach issue. No one's been able to figure out what the heck's up with my stomach. We're making progress by like trial and error, but we don't really know. So, but what I did know is that my stomach was too sensitive to take medication for most of my twenties and thirties, so it wasn't really an option because I was in pain every day for my stomach burning and I couldn't add any more to that. And yeah, that's like a whew , bad paradox 'cause the pain was definitely not helping the depression. So even though I wasn't against them, I just opted out for myself because I really , uh, didn't think my body could tolerate them. And what I did do was sign up for life coaching, take a gajillion workshops, read books, investigate, you know, I was gonna therapy three times a week when things are really bad. Um, I have pretty much done everything, a ton of woo stuff that I've probably already forgotten because I've done so much of it. And when someone asks me I'm like, oh yeah, I

Speaker 2: 8:55

Did that thing. Uh, I'm deeply fascinated by the human brain. I'm deeply fascinated by why we work against ourselves. This is kinda the reason I started the podcast. You know, what is it to have a creative drive inside of you and then to not put out the song or the novel or the whatever it is into the world that you want. I'm really, really curious about that. And I'm also just been trying to solve my own anxiety and depression and I've done a ton of work. I journal every day <laugh> . I know all the tricks is what I wanna say. But the tricks don't make you happy if your brain is like mine. So , uh, if you haven't seen the Wellbutrin wins, oh, so this is my other thing. I had this phrase called the Wellbutrin wins. Um, because I found that just when I started taking the Wellbutrin, my ability to take risks exponentially , uh, expounded, I the fact that I decided to leave Brooklyn and become a digital nomad for a year, my friend and I were like, that's the Wellbutrin win. There's no way I would've considered that a year before because I was so anxious about not having roots and not being grounded and so terrified of , um, yeah, of like where I was planted. And so I was very kind of huddled in my apartment, which I loved and I loved Brooklyn. But when it was time to leave, it was very much aided by Wellbutrin. And the month I remember of August when I told my landlord I wasn't renewing my lease and got real and I was looking for a secondhand car and I was packing stuff up and giving away all my furniture. There were days when I could not get outta bed. I was so terrified by my own decisions and I got a lot of coaching on that. And I also started to find that Wellbutrin allowed me to talk to the panic before I had been panicking about stuff. And I knew it wasn't rational or logical. Um, you know, I've just kind of assumed the world is gonna end in biblical times, earth and fire , uh, water and fire, flooding and fire are the words I'm looking for. And I've always felt that way. I've always just felt like that's for sure what's gonna happen. And it's not, it's not a precise, you know, this event is gonna happen. It's more just like everything feels like it's going towards a bad end. And I could never argue with that. It was like, I know that's maybe not true, but it feels so true in my system. I don't know how to argue with that. And what I found with the Wellbutrin is that when I was having serious panics about leaving Brooklyn and organizing everything, I was able to talk to my panic and say, whew , yeah , that makes a lot of sense right now. And I know that I have always figured out whatever I have set my mind to. And I have moved and I have gotten lost in Morocco <laugh> . And I have , um, you know, I have just traveled a lot. I've done a lot of stuff and I've always solved the problems in front of me. So I totally get panic as much as you want. And also I'm gonna be here and I'm gonna keep figuring out. And that ability to talk to the parts of me that felt overwhelmed was a game changer because what I realized was before I was saying all those things to myself, 'cause I knew they were the quote unquote right answer, but they didn't , um, they didn't stick, they didn't sink in the complete and utter belief in my bones that everything was gonna be terrible and people were scary and the world was dangerous. It didn't really matter how much evidence I gave it that was different to that, it didn't shake. So I lived in a scary world in my brain and the Wellbutrin was an incredible gift. And I started at 150 milligrams Megs, we say for short. I'm hoping that's milligrams. Um, and after, and I felt, I will also say I was on steroids at the time trying to solve my stomach issues. And the steroids completely knocked me exhausted. So I was already struggling with covid and depression. I was caretaking an elder relative who I loved dearly and wasn't doing well. And then I was on steroids and just, I, I I just gave up. I had no energy to care about anything anymore. And that's when I knew I was in trouble. It's when I stopped caring about stuff that I knew was in trouble. So , um, we started Wellbutrin and I felt in , I was lucky. Um, most , uh, antidepressants and mental health medications take four to six weeks to find out , um, how they work for you. Within a few days I felt better. And I remember I got tickets to the ballet and walked 30 minutes to bam, which is where um, we have a lot of incredible arts in Brooklyn and just felt like being in the world again. And I was like, oh , Wellbutrin, <laugh> . Um, and then a month later when I kind of settled, I realized , uh, what had been such a gift before was now was like I just started seeing how the rest of the world was way less panicked and how much work I still had to do to manage my anxiety every single day, my panic and my depression. And so we solely went up , um, to 300 milligrams and then we did 5, 450 milligrams , um, which is the max you can really take in Wellbutrin. And uh, every step of the way was just this extra little protection and softness and ability to , um, trust myself ability to go out into the world. And I remember when I first started Wellbutrin, I remember very clearly feeling like this bubble came around me and all of a sudden I could understand that other people's emotions and words and problems and desires for me or desires for themselves were theirs. And I was inside my bubble and I could hear myself a little bit, a little bit more loudly than I could hear them in my entire life. I've been told I'm too sensitive and I'm too enmeshed and I'm whatever. And I'm like, but I don't know how to change that because I feel everyone's stuff and I hear everyone's stuff all the time. And so I understand it's not healthy and I want to be different, but also I don't know how. And I literally was like, oh, this is what normal people experience. Like your sense of self, your desires, your dreams for yourself, your goals are louder than other people's and you just get to be in this bubble. Not to say that I don't feel everyone's else's stuff or can connect or have empathy, but just I get to hear myself. And I was like, wow, this is incredible. So that was my experience with Wellbutrin. And um, fast forward I left Brooklyn and I got on the road and uh, about two months into it kind of fell off a cliff again. Part of it had to do with family stuff that came up. Um, and we tried a different medication and it did not work. It completely knocked me on my and all I was doing was sleeping all day. And I was like, this is not a functional medication. I need something different. And so , uh, I asked my health coach and she had said that Lexapro and Wellbutrin work really, really well together. And so I asked, can I have some Lexapro? And my psychiatrist was like, yeah. So I started Lexapro about a year ago last actually I think last October, really a year ago. And um, and the experience I remember of Lexapro because I was, it might have been November when I started it 'cause I remember it was really dark and really cold and I was in an apartment on my own in a town I'd never been in again, digital nomad. So I was traveling a lot and I wasn't meeting friends all the time or making new friends depending on where I was. And especially when I was already depressed and the sun was going down at four o'clock and there was snow everywhere. I wasn't going out to be social. So it was a very lonely time to go through winter. I now learned winters are not the best time to be digital nomads in new cities. And, and I remember feeling like I landed in my body and feeling like all of the emotions that I felt were swirling around me, but they no longer were the tsunami that was sweeping me away. I was suddenly grounded in my body. And I remember a few weeks later, I don't know if we'd increased it a little bit by then, but a few weeks later waking up and thinking I fundamentally feel okay in my body. And I think I'm someone who's been dissociated from her body for a long time and working on that for a long time and doing a lot of somatic therapy, which I've really been a game changer for me and really helped me heal. But I'm also someone whose brain is very fast, whose brain is very strong and loud and I can hang out in my brain for forever. And I think it's like a chicken and egg where I think the anxiety makes you wanna hang out in your brain 'cause it feels safe, but then your brain just spins more stories of anxiety. And so a lot of the practices for calming anxiety are to come back into your body. And people are always telling me to do that. And I was like, I don't know what that means. I'm like, I'm trying but I don't know what it means. And I literally woke up and thought, wow, like my body is here. It is solid, it is currently unbroken. I'm okay fundamentally like whatever happens today, this is okay. And I was like, I've never felt that way . I've never felt like I woke up. I mean I would wake up in a panic like first hour or two in the morning was just trying to function through my panic so I could actually start my day. And I woke up and I realized what it is to I'm necessarily live in your body. I think an embodiment thing as a whole separate, but like to really just feel solid in the world in a way that, yeah, my emotions were not bigger than me. I will say for some people, and I know this is a lot of the fear around taking medication, there's this fear that it's gonna dull your emotions or it's going to make you lethargic in general in life. It can. Um, there's a lot of different classes of , um, antidepressants and anti-anxiety medication. And by classes we mean different ways that they work on the brain in order to help. There's a lot of them we don't even understand entirely. Most of them honestly, we don't really understand entirely how they help, but they do. In fact, I think when my psychiatrist gave them to me and I was like, I feel so much better. He is like, that doesn't make sense. It's supposed to be for anxiety. And I was like, yeah, I can't, but it's working. Um, so there is a lot of trial and error involved in finding the medication and I definitely am someone who did not want to feel less , um, just wanted to feel manageable. And there are some medications depending on your reaction to them where your sense of, you know, people sometimes get a foggy head. I had a friend who tried Wellbutrin and ended up feeling like a zombie or like, okay, that's not a good thing for you. But I tried another medication in college and I remember like vivid moments sitting at a computer , uh, in my Friday day job and we were on like the 12th floor and just thinking about jumping out the window. And I was like, this is not me. I am , I'm not suicidal, this is something else. And I was really lucky that I heard that and I was like, we're stopping this medication. 'cause weirdly, in paradoxically some medications make people more suicidal. Can't explain the brain guys. Um, so it is really important to be tracking your own reaction to stuff and to be seeing are there side effects? Do you feel better? Do you feel worse? I definitely get dizzy when I first try medication . So I was dizzy a little bit the first week or two and then it kind of settled. Um, that's why they say to try something for four to six weeks. They really wanna see how your body does metabolizing that medication. Um, so there is no one size fits all , which I know is the most devastating news when you're already in a really bad place and you're really desperate for help. And then you're being told, well, we gotta try one thing and see how it does. And then if it doesn't work, we've gotta try something else. It can be really, really hard to hold on for that. And so the one of the reasons I wanted to come here and talk about Wellbutrin wins and Lexapro Landing as I'm now calling it, is , um, to give hope to those who are maybe considering trying medication but have been afraid who have tried something and it didn't work for them. Um, I'm definitely not saying everyone needs to be on medication, I don't think, I don't think any one thing solves everything. I don't think therapy is a solution to all things or all people at all times. I have a lot of different modalities. I'm in a couple different programs. Every time I learn something, I apply it. So I have a huge toolbox of things and I've worked a lot with therapists and life coaches and so I have, I I sometimes I'm like, you know, maybe it's a priest or a rabbi or an imam that you need to go to. I don't know who it is who can help you. I don't know if it's talking to somebody who's trust that you trust. Um, oftentimes it can be a combination. There's also some research that taking a 20 minute walk can be just as effective as antidepressants. So those are other things that I do. I have a whole checklist of taking a walk and , um, being social and making sure I sit in the sun. Like all of those things are also really, really important. So again, I'm not, I'm not a doctor and I'm not advocating that everyone needs to be on medication. But what I am saying, if something feels really, really wrong for you and your brain, I would offer , um, to reach out to a psychiatrist. And I think even you can talk to often , uh, PCPs, a general practitioner, if you've got like a , just a regular family doctor or an internist, there's a lot of them. Um, even psychiatric nurses I'm finding can, especially like Wellbutrin and Lexapro tend to be very, I wanna say class A, but I could be wrong, whatever, whatever class of drugs the government is not worried about 'cause they're not addictive. So there's like harder drugs that the government really have to go through a psychiatrist and you gotta make sure that you're tracked because they're really addictive or they can be made into meth. I don't know guys, I don't know enough about what people do with drugs, but Lexapro and Wellbutrin are some of the easier ones, which, and they tend to work on a lot of people and they tend to be easy on the body, which is also an incredible gift. So find out what your resources are, if this is something that you're struggling with. Um, and I say this because about three weeks ago I had to go back to my psychiatrist and say, I'm not okay anymore. I think I need more something. And so there's, there's different kinds of depression. There's , um, situational depression, which often means that something happened to you , uh, maybe you moved or you changed jobs or you got divorced or you got injured. And it, it just kind of shocks the system and it can be really hard to figure out how to get your grounding. Again. I had shoulder surgery , uh, five weeks ago, but for the two months before that I was pretty much in daily pain and we did not know what was wrong. It took 'em like two months to get an MRI approved and get an MRI and figure out what was happening and then decide on surgery. So by the time I had surgery and then spent another four weeks in pain, it had gone on for three months and I just ran out of giddy up . I had done, again, a checklist of things to take care of my shoulder and ways to rehab my right shoulder so it didn't break. And ways to like checklist upon checklist, I was giving myself gold stars for taking walks for drinking water, for putting anti-inflammatories on. Like , uh, there's this topical anti-inflammatory that I use for my shoulder so I can save my stomach , uh, the pain of , uh, medication. And I just reached a point where I, it just, it's like, it's like my brain broke. And one of the best ways that I know that I'm in trouble is when I start thinking why Monday? Like literally why is, why is anyone having breakfast? Why is anyone making plans? Why do you go to work? What ? Like nothing makes sense and there's no reason to do anything and I can't remember why I cared before and that's when I think I don't know how to get through this. And so that is very much situational depression. Mine was coming up against the fact that also I get seasonal depression when it gets dark. And I don't know where you guys live in the northeast. The sun starts going down at five o'clock and by winter is down at four o'clock and it's bloody freezing out. So you , no one wants to go outside. It's hard to walk and move your body 'cause it's so cold and it's dark and the dark can affect a lot of people. I don't know if it's everyone, I'm always amazed that some people aren't affected, but the dark affects a lot of people and, and it makes me more depressed. I have a , I have a light box that I turn on in the morning and the evening. Again, I have so many tools, but I knew I had another, you know, I had six weeks total in the sling and then six weeks of physical therapy where I think we just only stretch my arm and don't do much else. And then in January my arm should be fully healed and my shoulder and then we start strengthening. So I was gonna have to go through the entire winter without yoga, without salsa dancing, without a lot of movement. And I just knew that was gonna be really rough when I was already feeling so rough. And that's when I reached out to my psychiatrist and said, I'm not okay. Like this is, this is not enough. And I think it's, you know, I don't necessarily wanna be on it for the rest of my life. Maybe this is a , we increase Lexapro, which what we decided to do, we increase it through March. You know, we get me through winter and we get me through rehab of my shoulder to a place where I, the sun is back and I can go to yoga. You know, yoga for me is community yoga for me is moving my body in community, which are my two of my favorite things. Salsa, dancing, same thing. It's being in community and being able to move my body. And those are also very easy ways to be social when you're traveling a lot and you don't have a set group of friends in the place where you are. I zoom with a lot of friends, I've maintained a lot of friendships by zoom and it's a blessing, but it's not the same as having your body in a space with other bodies. And so yoga and salsa to me are two ways in which I can show up. They can be total strangers, we don't even have to get to know each other. But on a animal of the body level, just being around other human bodies is very grounding. It's very good for the immune system. It just like resets a lot of my depression. It's like, oh, they're humans, we're human. We can do this <laugh> the world is still spinning. I'm okay. So I, yeah, I , I went up on Lexapro about a week and a half ago , um, and I immediately started feeling a little bit better. And then I had a stomach flare up , so I was sick again and my stomach was burning for three days and I just realized how hard it is to be in constant pain. And weirdly I'd forgotten, which I guess is a blessing. And um, how also it's so hard on the mental health to be in pain all the time. It's just, it feels inescapable and it's one of those things that , um, wears you down. It's, it's hard to explain if you haven't been in it because most injuries for most people are short term . You know, someone breaks their arm , someone twists an ankle, it's bad for a few weeks, it gets slowly better and then it gets strong again. And then you go back to your life. Um, imagine those few weeks being a few years, it's, it's, I actually should think about what this would be like because I, it's like having, it's like stepping on a push pin inside your shoe every time you step and just every time it just never goes away and there's nothing you can do. So that sense of hopelessness, there's nothing you can do, it's just gonna always be there. You can't stop walking. You need to walk or you could, but then you wouldn't have a life at all. Um, no one knows what's causing it. No one seems to be able to have a solution for you. So they're just telling you maybe you should meditate or maybe it's all in your head 'cause they can't see the pushpin. So you just have a pushpin causing pain all the time. And there are times when you're like, okay, I'm gonna do this. You meditate. And there are times when you're just, I am in so much pain and I just don't know how to make it stop and I can't make it stop and I don't wanna be here now in terms of I just don't wanna be in this physical pain and I don't know where else to be. And they're also discovering that a lot of your happy chemicals either get made in the stomach or your stomach communicates to the brain to make them. So when you've got a stomach disorder, you're also missing out on that. And I was like, that makes sense. So I do talk a lot about having a chronic illness. So if that is something that you struggle with, I am so sorry, it can be really, really rough. Um, it's, I definitely think people who are in a chronic illness situation , um, my totally un doctor opinion is look into medications , uh, mental health medications. If you haven't, I think it's incredibly hard to go through a chronic illness where there are no answers and it is a very slow recovery or possibly a not recovery. And it's completely interrupting so many life things like being social, like going outside, like sitting in the sun. Um, it takes away so many ways in which we heal ourselves that it can just really darken the brain and the mood. Some people are more susceptible to depression than others. I definitely am. I have a friend who's gone through a ton of and she's just like, kind of basically fine. Like she's gotta work through her and we talk about that, but her brain doesn't default to the world is ending. It's gonna be bad, which is what my brain used to default to. And the other thing about depression, another reason why I think medication can be really important is that depression has been shown to be sort of like a groove that you put into, I'm gonna date myself a vinyl disc . Um, or let's say you're ice skating. I don't, I hope you guys are, I'm like a Canadian who's old <laugh> . I'm like, you might not know ice skating and you might know vinyl discs , vinyl records, but essentially like a groove that repeats itself, right? You put a line in the sand and it keeps going and going and going. And the more you stay in depression, the longer the deeper the groove gets, the more you're, you're pushing that stick into the sand and the more you are making that groove deep. And so it gets harder to come out of a depression the longer you stay in it. And what they've also found is that the longer you stay in it, the easier it is to fall into another one later on. So if anyone has a recurring , um, depression, it can be just so much easier to fall into it. So it's, it's one reason why psychiatrists and mental health specialists advocate for really treating it soon. And if medication is needed, it doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna need medication for the rest of your life. It might be for six months for a year just to get you out of that, just to bump you out of that deep groove in the sand so that you're back to normal and then your brain will kick in and remember how to do normal again. And that can often be the experience. So Wellbutrin wins and Lexapro landings, I've been incredibly blessed that these medications worked for me, worked pretty much right away, worked in a way that I could recognize that I have access to them, that I have health insurance that makes 'em very affordable and a psychiatrist that I can call when things are bad. Um, but these are still things that I think are hard to talk about. I think this feels very vulnerable. You know, if I had diabetes and I was talking about my insulin, I think I would feel very different than saying, this is how my brain actually looks. It's, it's a really hard thing to say. This is the inside of my thoughts and it's not pretty. It's in fact incredibly dark. And I know, 'cause I've had friends tell me that it can be hard because all you wanna do is argue and say, but you know, you're not a bad person. You know, the world isn't gonna end. I mean it is , but like, you know, <laugh> , you're gonna be okay until whatever, you know, it's not gonna end in your lifetime. Um, and arguing doesn't help. It doesn't matter. It doesn't, it's not, it's uh , depression is not logical. Anxiety is not logical. It does not respond to logical arguments. It is not super helpful. In fact, it can be quite detrimental to argue with someone who is struggling in this way because their brain believes those things so wholeheartedly that then to have someone argue that actually they're fine and everything is fine, can feel really, really dismissive and makes someone feel even worse. And then they're gonna feel like they've gotta pretend that everything is okay so that you don't have to worry about them. So there are a lot of ways in which talking about mental health, and if you're not someone who struggles or have someone who struggles, it can be hard to hear that and to know, well, what level are you at and how bad is it? And how dangerous is it? And are taking , are you taking care of yourself? You know? So I do think those are questions you can ask. There was research , um, from the suicide, I don't know who, if it was the Association of Suicidology or someone else that showed that one of the best ways to actually prevent someone from taking their own life , uh, was to ask them if they had a concrete plan, which sounds paradoxical, but they said that either someone is like thinking about it. There's a thing called suicidal ideation, meaning you're thinking about dying, but it's more as a relief from the pain that you're in. And it's not something concrete where you've made a plan for a certain date with a certain tool, but those who have made that plan or have been considering that plan, you know, maybe what pills they would get or access to a handgun they have or something else and are thinking about this certain date being asked and being heard about that plan. And then being able to talk about it with someone who's not freaking out, who's like, okay, okay, maybe it's time. You know? And then recommending that that person gets help , um, can, is like one of the best ways to interrupt someone's , uh, desire and pattern to take their own life. And so again, the paradox of being able to talk about this, especially because these things are considered so shameful and feel so vulnerable and shameful, that being able to listen to someone in a tough place without judgment really listen and just listen sometimes or listen and make sure that they've got support that they need, is the game changer. And it is the hardest thing to do. I myself come from a long line of fixers. I am a fixer. I often jump in with advice before anyone is asked. It is something I'm trying to change. But the ability to hear where someone is at without correcting them or trying to cheer them up or any of that stuff is , um, it's a way of a walking the path alongside another human. And strangely, one of the best, most powerful gifts you can give. Okay. I think this episode has been long enough. I really hope wherever you find yourselves today that you are, well take care.